http://www.graceforums.com/ Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:11:06 -0600 MyBB http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=879 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 01:58:37 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=879
I've thought of keeping track of all the books I read over a year like this...but I've never actually done it. Oh, I could go back and remember a bunch of highlights, but I doubt I could put together an exhaustive list of books I've read over any given year.

Has anybody here at GF kept a catalogue of books read over a year?

And, by the way...IMHO, Education of a Wandering Man would be an excellent book for homeschoolers. I plan to have my kids read it, in addition to any other cirriculum they may have. Here are some quotes from it:


Quote:I have read my books by many lights, hoarding their beauty, their wit or wisdom against the dark days when I would have no book, nor a place to read.

I have known hunger of the belly kind many times over, but I have known a worse hunger: the need to know and to learn.



Quote:A book is less important for what it says than for what it makes you think.

(I suppose this one could open a can of worms if you try to apply it to Scripture, but it's essentially true nontheless.)


Quote:My library is not simply an accumulation of books. Each book has a reason for being there, and there is no deadwood on those shelves.



Quote:History to me is the story of people and how they lived, not just an endless story of dynasties and wars. They are a part of the story, of course, and my library is very complete...The beauty of educating oneself as I was doing, or as anyone can do, is that there are no limits to what can be learned. All that is learned demands contemplation, and so one is never at a loss for something to do.

]]>
I've thought of keeping track of all the books I read over a year like this...but I've never actually done it. Oh, I could go back and remember a bunch of highlights, but I doubt I could put together an exhaustive list of books I've read over any given year.

Has anybody here at GF kept a catalogue of books read over a year?

And, by the way...IMHO, Education of a Wandering Man would be an excellent book for homeschoolers. I plan to have my kids read it, in addition to any other cirriculum they may have. Here are some quotes from it:


Quote:I have read my books by many lights, hoarding their beauty, their wit or wisdom against the dark days when I would have no book, nor a place to read.

I have known hunger of the belly kind many times over, but I have known a worse hunger: the need to know and to learn.



Quote:A book is less important for what it says than for what it makes you think.

(I suppose this one could open a can of worms if you try to apply it to Scripture, but it's essentially true nontheless.)


Quote:My library is not simply an accumulation of books. Each book has a reason for being there, and there is no deadwood on those shelves.



Quote:History to me is the story of people and how they lived, not just an endless story of dynasties and wars. They are a part of the story, of course, and my library is very complete...The beauty of educating oneself as I was doing, or as anyone can do, is that there are no limits to what can be learned. All that is learned demands contemplation, and so one is never at a loss for something to do.

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=878 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:06:52 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=878 Quote:BAGHDAD — The U.S. military says a group of Iraqi soldiers has donated $500 to help California wildfire victims.

Iraqi Col. Abbas Fadhil at the Besmaya range complex south of Baghdad says his troops want to send a message to the American people with the donation that “we are a family.”


Somehow the MSM will avoid this.

:rolleyes:]]> Quote:BAGHDAD — The U.S. military says a group of Iraqi soldiers has donated $500 to help California wildfire victims.

Iraqi Col. Abbas Fadhil at the Besmaya range complex south of Baghdad says his troops want to send a message to the American people with the donation that “we are a family.”


Somehow the MSM will avoid this.

:rolleyes:]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=877 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:21:12 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=877
I don't believe that God forces his will on mankind. Salvation will go to those who want it enough to keep wanting it and to keep their eyes on the prize even when things get difficult. Sometimes things are easy and people come to Christ. When things get difficult they give up. God does not give up on them but he cant save them if they fall away and decide not to come back to him. God follows you everywhere but he does not pull you back against your will.

Many of those people saying Lord Lord would have been even believing that they are saved. But they got deceived into believing that God brings you to heaven regardless of how you live and what you do as long as you accepted him at one point in your life. Of course you don't lose your salvation if you sin but you can lose your salvation because of sin.]]>
I don't believe that God forces his will on mankind. Salvation will go to those who want it enough to keep wanting it and to keep their eyes on the prize even when things get difficult. Sometimes things are easy and people come to Christ. When things get difficult they give up. God does not give up on them but he cant save them if they fall away and decide not to come back to him. God follows you everywhere but he does not pull you back against your will.

Many of those people saying Lord Lord would have been even believing that they are saved. But they got deceived into believing that God brings you to heaven regardless of how you live and what you do as long as you accepted him at one point in your life. Of course you don't lose your salvation if you sin but you can lose your salvation because of sin.]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=876 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:45:03 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=876
But wait, there's more.

He wanted reasonable regulation on the internet.

Here's what else he was up to.

Yeah. That's the change we need. :rolleyes:

Why does this guy seem to pick the worst of the Clinton retreads?]]>
But wait, there's more.

He wanted reasonable regulation on the internet.

Here's what else he was up to.

Yeah. That's the change we need. :rolleyes:

Why does this guy seem to pick the worst of the Clinton retreads?]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=875 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:03:53 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=875 The King James version was originally printed in the type style known as "black letter," Words of the translation which were supplied to make the sense clear, but which were not represented in the Greek text used by the translators, were often set in small "roman" type. In later editions, the ordinary text was set in roman type, with the supplied words in italics. This typographical feature was not employed very consistently in the 1611 edition; in many places the supplied words are not indicated as one might expect. This inconsistency was probably the fault of the printer's compositors, who very often modified even the spelling of words in order to lengthen or shorten a line of type.

The editors of the 1769 Oxford edition undertook, to regularize the use of italics by italicizing all words of the translation which did not have a counterpart in the text of Estienne (Stephens) 1550. Consequently, modern editions of the King James version are much more heavily italicized than the original: In Matthew, the 1611 edition uses roman type 69 times to demonstrate these types of additions, whereas the more exact 1769 edition uses italics 384 times.

The reader of the KJV however should be aware that the King James version is not, strictly speaking, a translation of Estienne 1550 version of the TR though; and so in some cases the modern italics are misleading if used as an indication of the readings upon which the version is based. For example, in Mark 8:14 the modern editions italicize the words the disciples because they are not in Estienne, but it is evident that here the King James translators were following, 1598 edition of the TR produced by Beza, where the words hoi mathetai are found.

Another interesting text (example of italicised wording) is Mark 9:42 where ‘these’ is italicised in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598. However it would appear that 1611 translators actually followed the vulgate and the Complutensian Polyglot 1522 in this verse. Another example of the 1611 KJV following the vulgate is to be found in 1 Cor 14:10 where the word ‘of them’ our found in both Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598 version of the TR, yet following the vulgate these were italicised as per the vulgate. Rev 11:14 is another example of where the vulgate was followed.

Interestingly, Heb 12:24 follows the Erasums 1527 version of the TR in the word that are italicised. Modern editions italicize ‘that of’ before ‘Abel’, in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598.
Rev 19:18 Modern editions italicize ‘both’ before ‘fre’e, in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon Complutensian Polyglot 1522.

Whilst not significant in themselves, these slight differences show that the KJV translators did not feel bound by any single version of the TR when doing their translation, but rather performed a form a textual criticism to determine which text they thought was the best for a particular passage. This not only included the existing versions of the TR, but also the vulgate and the Complutensian Polyglot 1522 along with the variety of English bibles that were already in existence.

Alteration to the text

The following list includes all changes to the text of 1611 which do not involve the correction of obvious errors of the press or changes of spelling, capitalization, and punctuation. Most of these changes were made with reference to the text of Estienne 1550, and with a view to greater clarity or accuracy. The changes marked with an asterix "*" are all those which are considered improper or unnecessary by F.H.A. Scrivener, an eminent authority on the text of the KJV, in his book, The Authorized Edition of the English Bible (1611), its subsequent Reprints and modern Representatives. (Cambridge: University Press, 1884).
* Mat 3:12 Add he before will burn up. Rejected by Scrivener.
Mat 6:3 Add hand after right. Approved by Scrivener.
* Mat 9:34 Omit the before devils.
* Mat 12:23 Add not before this the son.
* Mat 13:6 Read had no root instead of had not root.
Mat 16:16 Add the before Christ.
Mat 16:19 Add and before whatsoever thou shalt loose.
Mat 26:75 Read word instead of words.
Mat 27:22 Read Pilate saith instead of Pilate said.
* Mat 27:52 Add the before saints.
Mark 2:4 Add the before press.
Mark 5:6 Read he ran instead of he came.
* Mark 6:7 Read he called instead of he calleth.
* Mark 6:53 Read Gennesaret instead of Genesareth. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S B E. 1611: Er Vul.
Mark 10:18 Read [there is] none good but one instead of there is no man good, but one.
Mark 11:8 Read branches off the trees instead of branches of the trees.
Luke 1:3 Add all before things.
Luke 1:74 Read hand instead of hands.
Luke 3:21 Omit and before it came to pass.
* Luke 8:8 Add had before said.
* Luke 11:16 Read others instead of other.
Luke 17:34 Add and before the other shall be left.
* Luke 18:9 Read others instead of other.
Luke 19:9 Read a son of Abraham instead of the son of Abraham.
Luke 20:12 Read sent a third instead of sent the third.
Luke 23:19 Read cast into prison instead of cast in prison.
John 5:18 Transpose not only because he to because he not only.
John 7:16 Add and said after Jesus answered them.
John 8:30 Read these words instead of those words.
John 11:3 Read his sisters instead of his sister.
* John 11:34 Read They said unto him instead of They say unto him.
John 12:22 Read tell Jesus instead of told Jesus.
John 15:20 Read than his lord instead of than the Lord.
* John 16:25 Add but before the time. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S B E. 1611: Er Vul.
John 21:17 Read He saith unto him instead of he said unto him.
Acts 2:22 Add and before wonders.
* Acts 5:34 Add the before law.
Acts 7:35 Read by the hand instead of by the hands.
Acts 8:32 Read his shearer instead of the shearer.
* Acts 10:9 Add top after upon the house.
* Acts 18:5 Add the before spirit.
* Acts 19:19 Transpose also of them to of them also.
* Acts 24:14 Add in before the prophets.
Acts 24:24 Read Jewess instead of Jew.
Acts 27:18 Read And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next [day] instead of And being exceedingly tossed with a tempest the next day.
Rom 3:24 Read Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ.
Rom 4:12 Add who before also walk.
Rom 6:12 Transpose reign therefore to therefore reign.
* Rom 7:2 Read law of her husband instead of law of the husband.
Rom 7:13 Transpose Was that then to Was then that.
Rom 11:28 Read for your sakes instead of for your sake.
Rom 12:2 Read and acceptable instead of that acceptable.
Rom 14:6 Read regardeth the day instead of regardeth a day.
Rom 14:10 Add for before we shall all stand.
* 1 Cor 4:9 Read appointed to death instead of approved to death.
1 Cor 7:32 Read things that belong instead of things that belongeth.
1 Cor 10:28 Add for before the earth is.
1 Cor 12:28 Read helps, governments instead of helps in governments.
* 1 Cor 13:2 Read have not charity instead of have no charity.
* 1 Cor 14:15 Add I before will pray.
* 1 Cor 14:18 Read than ye all instead of than you all.
1 Cor 14:23 Read one place instead of some place.
1 Cor 15:6 Read After that instead of And that.
1 Cor 15:41 Read and another glory of the moon instead of another of the moon.
1 Cor 15:48 Add also before that are earthy.
1 Cor 16:22 Read anathema, Maranatha instead of Anathema Maranatha.
* 2 Cor 5:1 Read made with hands instead of made with hand.
2 Cor 5:2 Read groan, earnestly desiring instead of groan earnestly, desiring.
2 Cor 5:20 Omit that before be ye reconciled.
2 Cor 8:21 Add also before in the sight.
2 Cor 9:5 Add and before not.
2 Cor 9:5 Add as before of covetousness.
2 Cor 9:6 Add also after reap twice.
2 Cor 11:26 Read journeyings instead of journeying.
2 Cor 11:32 Add of the Damascenes after the city.
* Gal Title Add the Apostle before to the Galatians. 1611 followed another source. 1769: E. 1611: S.
Gal 3:13 Add a before tree.
* Gal 5:15 Add that after take heed.
* Eph 1:9 Read hath purposed instead of had purposed.
Eph 4:24 Read the new man instead of that new man.
* Eph 6:24 Add Amen at end of verse. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S E. 1611: Vul.
Phil 4:6 Read requests instead of request.
2 Th 2:14 Read our Lord Jesus Christ instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Tim 1:4 Add godly before edifying.
* 1 Tim 2:9 Read shamefacedness instead of shamefastness.
2 Tim 1:7 Add and before of love.
* 2 Tim 1:12 Omit I before am persuaded.
2 Tim 2:19 Read this seal instead of the seal.
2 Tim 4:8 Add all before them also.
2 Tim 4:13 Add and the books after bring [with thee].
Heb 3:10 Read their heart instead of their hearts.
Heb 8:8 Add with before the house of Judah.
Heb 11:23 Add were before not afraid.
Heb 12:1 Omit unto before the race.
James 5:2 Add are before motheaten.
1 Pet 2:1 Add all before evil speakings.
1 Pet 2:5 Read sacrifices instead of sacrifice.
1 Pet 2:6 Add also after Wherefore.
* 1 Pet 5:10 Read called us unto instead of called us into.
1 John 2:16 Add and before the lust of the eyes.
* 1 John 3:17 Read have need instead of hath need.
1 John 5:12 Add of God after hath not the Son.
Jude 1:25 Add both before now and ever.
Rev 1:4 Add which are before in Asia.
Rev 1:11 Add unto before Philadelphia.
Rev 5:13 Add and before honour.
Rev 5:13 Add and before glory.
Rev 12:14 Read fly instead of flee.
Rev 13:6 Read them that dwell instead of them that dwelt.
* Rev 17:4 Read precious stones instead of precious stone.
* Rev 22:2 Read on either side instead of of either side.

So we, not only see that the translators were prepared to use different Greek texts, and indeed the Latin vulgate and other English versions in their production of the KJV, we also see that as the King James version aged, it has been altered. Now whilst none of these alteration are significant it does beg a question. Many people claim that the KJV is the infallible word of God, well which version are they talking about? A single small error is enough to render a work fallible, is it the 1611 version, or the 1769 Oxford edition that we have today.

A similar question can be asked of the TR, if it is the infallible preserved word of God, when has gone through several subsequent editions since its first edition by Erasmus?

Another question that must be answered in relation to the KJV and its relationship with the TR is why did the translators feel free to use several versions of the TR, and indeed look wider afeild. It is a fact that the Greek text thought to underly the KJV NT was produced by scrivener and is a collage of various texts (F.H.A. Scrivener, The Authorized Edition of the English Bible (1611), its subsequent Reprints and modern Representatives. Cambridge: University Press, 1884. This is the definitive work on the textual sources and history of the Authorized Version.)]]> The King James version was originally printed in the type style known as "black letter," Words of the translation which were supplied to make the sense clear, but which were not represented in the Greek text used by the translators, were often set in small "roman" type. In later editions, the ordinary text was set in roman type, with the supplied words in italics. This typographical feature was not employed very consistently in the 1611 edition; in many places the supplied words are not indicated as one might expect. This inconsistency was probably the fault of the printer's compositors, who very often modified even the spelling of words in order to lengthen or shorten a line of type.

The editors of the 1769 Oxford edition undertook, to regularize the use of italics by italicizing all words of the translation which did not have a counterpart in the text of Estienne (Stephens) 1550. Consequently, modern editions of the King James version are much more heavily italicized than the original: In Matthew, the 1611 edition uses roman type 69 times to demonstrate these types of additions, whereas the more exact 1769 edition uses italics 384 times.

The reader of the KJV however should be aware that the King James version is not, strictly speaking, a translation of Estienne 1550 version of the TR though; and so in some cases the modern italics are misleading if used as an indication of the readings upon which the version is based. For example, in Mark 8:14 the modern editions italicize the words the disciples because they are not in Estienne, but it is evident that here the King James translators were following, 1598 edition of the TR produced by Beza, where the words hoi mathetai are found.

Another interesting text (example of italicised wording) is Mark 9:42 where ‘these’ is italicised in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598. However it would appear that 1611 translators actually followed the vulgate and the Complutensian Polyglot 1522 in this verse. Another example of the 1611 KJV following the vulgate is to be found in 1 Cor 14:10 where the word ‘of them’ our found in both Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598 version of the TR, yet following the vulgate these were italicised as per the vulgate. Rev 11:14 is another example of where the vulgate was followed.

Interestingly, Heb 12:24 follows the Erasums 1527 version of the TR in the word that are italicised. Modern editions italicize ‘that of’ before ‘Abel’, in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598.
Rev 19:18 Modern editions italicize ‘both’ before ‘fre’e, in accordance with Estienne 1550 and Beza 1598. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon Complutensian Polyglot 1522.

Whilst not significant in themselves, these slight differences show that the KJV translators did not feel bound by any single version of the TR when doing their translation, but rather performed a form a textual criticism to determine which text they thought was the best for a particular passage. This not only included the existing versions of the TR, but also the vulgate and the Complutensian Polyglot 1522 along with the variety of English bibles that were already in existence.

Alteration to the text

The following list includes all changes to the text of 1611 which do not involve the correction of obvious errors of the press or changes of spelling, capitalization, and punctuation. Most of these changes were made with reference to the text of Estienne 1550, and with a view to greater clarity or accuracy. The changes marked with an asterix "*" are all those which are considered improper or unnecessary by F.H.A. Scrivener, an eminent authority on the text of the KJV, in his book, The Authorized Edition of the English Bible (1611), its subsequent Reprints and modern Representatives. (Cambridge: University Press, 1884).
* Mat 3:12 Add he before will burn up. Rejected by Scrivener.
Mat 6:3 Add hand after right. Approved by Scrivener.
* Mat 9:34 Omit the before devils.
* Mat 12:23 Add not before this the son.
* Mat 13:6 Read had no root instead of had not root.
Mat 16:16 Add the before Christ.
Mat 16:19 Add and before whatsoever thou shalt loose.
Mat 26:75 Read word instead of words.
Mat 27:22 Read Pilate saith instead of Pilate said.
* Mat 27:52 Add the before saints.
Mark 2:4 Add the before press.
Mark 5:6 Read he ran instead of he came.
* Mark 6:7 Read he called instead of he calleth.
* Mark 6:53 Read Gennesaret instead of Genesareth. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S B E. 1611: Er Vul.
Mark 10:18 Read [there is] none good but one instead of there is no man good, but one.
Mark 11:8 Read branches off the trees instead of branches of the trees.
Luke 1:3 Add all before things.
Luke 1:74 Read hand instead of hands.
Luke 3:21 Omit and before it came to pass.
* Luke 8:8 Add had before said.
* Luke 11:16 Read others instead of other.
Luke 17:34 Add and before the other shall be left.
* Luke 18:9 Read others instead of other.
Luke 19:9 Read a son of Abraham instead of the son of Abraham.
Luke 20:12 Read sent a third instead of sent the third.
Luke 23:19 Read cast into prison instead of cast in prison.
John 5:18 Transpose not only because he to because he not only.
John 7:16 Add and said after Jesus answered them.
John 8:30 Read these words instead of those words.
John 11:3 Read his sisters instead of his sister.
* John 11:34 Read They said unto him instead of They say unto him.
John 12:22 Read tell Jesus instead of told Jesus.
John 15:20 Read than his lord instead of than the Lord.
* John 16:25 Add but before the time. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S B E. 1611: Er Vul.
John 21:17 Read He saith unto him instead of he said unto him.
Acts 2:22 Add and before wonders.
* Acts 5:34 Add the before law.
Acts 7:35 Read by the hand instead of by the hands.
Acts 8:32 Read his shearer instead of the shearer.
* Acts 10:9 Add top after upon the house.
* Acts 18:5 Add the before spirit.
* Acts 19:19 Transpose also of them to of them also.
* Acts 24:14 Add in before the prophets.
Acts 24:24 Read Jewess instead of Jew.
Acts 27:18 Read And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next [day] instead of And being exceedingly tossed with a tempest the next day.
Rom 3:24 Read Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ.
Rom 4:12 Add who before also walk.
Rom 6:12 Transpose reign therefore to therefore reign.
* Rom 7:2 Read law of her husband instead of law of the husband.
Rom 7:13 Transpose Was that then to Was then that.
Rom 11:28 Read for your sakes instead of for your sake.
Rom 12:2 Read and acceptable instead of that acceptable.
Rom 14:6 Read regardeth the day instead of regardeth a day.
Rom 14:10 Add for before we shall all stand.
* 1 Cor 4:9 Read appointed to death instead of approved to death.
1 Cor 7:32 Read things that belong instead of things that belongeth.
1 Cor 10:28 Add for before the earth is.
1 Cor 12:28 Read helps, governments instead of helps in governments.
* 1 Cor 13:2 Read have not charity instead of have no charity.
* 1 Cor 14:15 Add I before will pray.
* 1 Cor 14:18 Read than ye all instead of than you all.
1 Cor 14:23 Read one place instead of some place.
1 Cor 15:6 Read After that instead of And that.
1 Cor 15:41 Read and another glory of the moon instead of another of the moon.
1 Cor 15:48 Add also before that are earthy.
1 Cor 16:22 Read anathema, Maranatha instead of Anathema Maranatha.
* 2 Cor 5:1 Read made with hands instead of made with hand.
2 Cor 5:2 Read groan, earnestly desiring instead of groan earnestly, desiring.
2 Cor 5:20 Omit that before be ye reconciled.
2 Cor 8:21 Add also before in the sight.
2 Cor 9:5 Add and before not.
2 Cor 9:5 Add as before of covetousness.
2 Cor 9:6 Add also after reap twice.
2 Cor 11:26 Read journeyings instead of journeying.
2 Cor 11:32 Add of the Damascenes after the city.
* Gal Title Add the Apostle before to the Galatians. 1611 followed another source. 1769: E. 1611: S.
Gal 3:13 Add a before tree.
* Gal 5:15 Add that after take heed.
* Eph 1:9 Read hath purposed instead of had purposed.
Eph 4:24 Read the new man instead of that new man.
* Eph 6:24 Add Amen at end of verse. 1611 followed another source. 1769: S E. 1611: Vul.
Phil 4:6 Read requests instead of request.
2 Th 2:14 Read our Lord Jesus Christ instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Tim 1:4 Add godly before edifying.
* 1 Tim 2:9 Read shamefacedness instead of shamefastness.
2 Tim 1:7 Add and before of love.
* 2 Tim 1:12 Omit I before am persuaded.
2 Tim 2:19 Read this seal instead of the seal.
2 Tim 4:8 Add all before them also.
2 Tim 4:13 Add and the books after bring [with thee].
Heb 3:10 Read their heart instead of their hearts.
Heb 8:8 Add with before the house of Judah.
Heb 11:23 Add were before not afraid.
Heb 12:1 Omit unto before the race.
James 5:2 Add are before motheaten.
1 Pet 2:1 Add all before evil speakings.
1 Pet 2:5 Read sacrifices instead of sacrifice.
1 Pet 2:6 Add also after Wherefore.
* 1 Pet 5:10 Read called us unto instead of called us into.
1 John 2:16 Add and before the lust of the eyes.
* 1 John 3:17 Read have need instead of hath need.
1 John 5:12 Add of God after hath not the Son.
Jude 1:25 Add both before now and ever.
Rev 1:4 Add which are before in Asia.
Rev 1:11 Add unto before Philadelphia.
Rev 5:13 Add and before honour.
Rev 5:13 Add and before glory.
Rev 12:14 Read fly instead of flee.
Rev 13:6 Read them that dwell instead of them that dwelt.
* Rev 17:4 Read precious stones instead of precious stone.
* Rev 22:2 Read on either side instead of of either side.

So we, not only see that the translators were prepared to use different Greek texts, and indeed the Latin vulgate and other English versions in their production of the KJV, we also see that as the King James version aged, it has been altered. Now whilst none of these alteration are significant it does beg a question. Many people claim that the KJV is the infallible word of God, well which version are they talking about? A single small error is enough to render a work fallible, is it the 1611 version, or the 1769 Oxford edition that we have today.

A similar question can be asked of the TR, if it is the infallible preserved word of God, when has gone through several subsequent editions since its first edition by Erasmus?

Another question that must be answered in relation to the KJV and its relationship with the TR is why did the translators feel free to use several versions of the TR, and indeed look wider afeild. It is a fact that the Greek text thought to underly the KJV NT was produced by scrivener and is a collage of various texts (F.H.A. Scrivener, The Authorized Edition of the English Bible (1611), its subsequent Reprints and modern Representatives. Cambridge: University Press, 1884. This is the definitive work on the textual sources and history of the Authorized Version.)]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=874 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:25:45 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=874
today's lol]]>
today's lol]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=873 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:33:36 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=873 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=872 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:04:59 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=872

Quote:When is Obama going to appoint someone who reflects the progressive base that brought him to the White House?

]]>

Quote:When is Obama going to appoint someone who reflects the progressive base that brought him to the White House?

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=871 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:42:14 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=871

Quote:The first independent investigation of the suspected nuclear site in Syria that Israel destroyed last year has bolstered U.S. claims that Damascus was building a secret nuclear reactor, according to a U.N. report that also confirmed the discovery of traces of uranium amid the ruins.

Officials with the United Nations’ atomic agency stopped short of declaring the wrecked facility a nuclear reactor, but they said it strongly resembled one. And they noted that Syria had gone to great lengths — including elaborate “landscaping” with tons of freshly imported soil — to alter the site before admitting outsiders.

Despite the apparent cleanup effort, environmental sampling by U.N. inspectors turned up traces of uranium, the fissile metal used in nuclear reactors, according to the report by the International Atomic Energy Agency, the world body’s nuclear watchdog.


Turns out it’s not only expensive to construct a clandestine nuclear program, it’s hard to clean up after someone comes in and deconstructs it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...eheadlines]]>

Quote:The first independent investigation of the suspected nuclear site in Syria that Israel destroyed last year has bolstered U.S. claims that Damascus was building a secret nuclear reactor, according to a U.N. report that also confirmed the discovery of traces of uranium amid the ruins.

Officials with the United Nations’ atomic agency stopped short of declaring the wrecked facility a nuclear reactor, but they said it strongly resembled one. And they noted that Syria had gone to great lengths — including elaborate “landscaping” with tons of freshly imported soil — to alter the site before admitting outsiders.

Despite the apparent cleanup effort, environmental sampling by U.N. inspectors turned up traces of uranium, the fissile metal used in nuclear reactors, according to the report by the International Atomic Energy Agency, the world body’s nuclear watchdog.


Turns out it’s not only expensive to construct a clandestine nuclear program, it’s hard to clean up after someone comes in and deconstructs it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...eheadlines]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=870 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:38:19 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=870 Quote:The US often hears echoes of worldwide hostility against the application of its foreign policy, but seldom are they reached by the voices of those who experience first hand how close we are to the USA. In spite of contextual political differences and conflicting interests that generate friction, we do share the same fundamental values - and when push comes to shove that is what really counts. Through the eyes of that French OMLT (Operational Mentoring Liaison Teams) infantryman you can see how strong the bond is on the ground. In contrast with the Americans, the French soldiers don’t seem to write much online - or maybe the proportion is the same but we just have less people deployed. Whatever the reason, this is a rare and moving testimony which is why I decided to translate it into English, so that American people can catch a glimpse of the way European soldiers see them. Not much high philosophy here, just the first hand impressions of a soldier in contact - but that only makes it more authentic.

Here is the original French article, and here is my translation :


Quote:“We have shared our daily life with two US units for quite a while - they are the first and fourth companies of a prestigious infantry battalion whose name I will withhold for the sake of military secrecy. To the common man it is a unit just like any other. But we live with them and got to know them, and we henceforth know that we have the honor to live with one of the most renowned units of the US Army - one that the movies brought to the public as series showing “ordinary soldiers thrust into extraordinary events”. Who are they, those soldiers from abroad, how is their daily life, and what support do they bring to the men of our OMLT every day ? Few of them belong to the Easy Company, the one the TV series focuses on. This one nowadays is named Echo Company, and it has become the support company.

They have a terribly strong American accent - from our point of view the language they speak is not even English. How many times did I have to write down what I wanted to say rather than waste precious minutes trying various pronunciations of a seemingly common word? Whatever state they are from, no two accents are alike and they even admit that in some crisis situations they have difficulties understanding each other.

Heavily built, fed at the earliest age with Gatorade, proteins and creatine - they are all heads and shoulders taller than us and their muscles remind us of Rambo. Our frames are amusingly skinny to them - we are wimps, even the strongest of us - and because of that they often mistake us for Afghans.

Here we discover America as it is often depicted : their values are taken to their paroxysm, often amplified by promiscuity and the loneliness of this outpost in the middle of that Afghan valley. Honor, motherland - everything here reminds of that : the American flag floating in the wind above the outpost, just like the one on the post parcels. Even if recruits often originate from the hearth of American cities and gang territory, no one here has any goal other than to hold high and proud the star spangled banner. Each man knows he can count on the support of a whole people who provides them through the mail all that an American could miss in such a remote front-line location : books, chewing gums, razorblades, Gatorade, toothpaste etc. in such way that every man is aware of how much the American people backs him in his difficult mission. And that is a first shock to our preconceptions : the American soldier is no individualist. The team, the group, the combat team are the focus of all his attention.

And they are impressive warriors ! We have not come across bad ones, as strange at it may seem to you when you know how critical French people can be. Even if some of them are a bit on the heavy side, all of them provide us everyday with lessons in infantry know-how. Beyond the wearing of a combat kit that never seem to discomfort them (helmet strap, helmet, combat goggles, rifles etc.) the long hours of watch at the outpost never seem to annoy them in the slightest. On the one square meter wooden tower above the perimeter wall they stand the five consecutive hours in full battle rattle and night vision goggles on top, their sight unmoving in the directions of likely danger. No distractions, no pauses, they are like statues nights and days. At night, all movements are performed in the dark - only a handful of subdued red lights indicate the occasional presence of a soldier on the move. Same with the vehicles whose lights are covered - everything happens in pitch dark even filling the fuel tanks with the Japy pump.

And combat ? If you have seen Rambo you have seen it all - always coming to the rescue when one of our teams gets in trouble, and always in the shortest delay. That is one of their tricks : they switch from T-shirt and sandals to combat ready in three minutes. Arriving in contact with the ennemy, the way they fight is simple and disconcerting : they just charge ! They disembark and assault in stride, they bomb first and ask questions later - which cuts any pussyfooting short.

We seldom hear any harsh word, and from 5 AM onwards the camp chores are performed in beautiful order and always with excellent spirit. A passing American helicopter stops near a stranded vehicle just to check that everything is alright; an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

To those who bestow us with the honor of sharing their combat outposts and who everyday give proof of their military excellence, to those who pay the daily tribute of America’s army’s deployment on Afghan soil, to those we owned this article, ourselves hoping that we will always remain worthy of them and to always continue hearing them say that we are all the same band of brothers”.


http://serendipity.ruwenzori.net/index.p...nfantryman]]> Quote:The US often hears echoes of worldwide hostility against the application of its foreign policy, but seldom are they reached by the voices of those who experience first hand how close we are to the USA. In spite of contextual political differences and conflicting interests that generate friction, we do share the same fundamental values - and when push comes to shove that is what really counts. Through the eyes of that French OMLT (Operational Mentoring Liaison Teams) infantryman you can see how strong the bond is on the ground. In contrast with the Americans, the French soldiers don’t seem to write much online - or maybe the proportion is the same but we just have less people deployed. Whatever the reason, this is a rare and moving testimony which is why I decided to translate it into English, so that American people can catch a glimpse of the way European soldiers see them. Not much high philosophy here, just the first hand impressions of a soldier in contact - but that only makes it more authentic.

Here is the original French article, and here is my translation :


Quote:“We have shared our daily life with two US units for quite a while - they are the first and fourth companies of a prestigious infantry battalion whose name I will withhold for the sake of military secrecy. To the common man it is a unit just like any other. But we live with them and got to know them, and we henceforth know that we have the honor to live with one of the most renowned units of the US Army - one that the movies brought to the public as series showing “ordinary soldiers thrust into extraordinary events”. Who are they, those soldiers from abroad, how is their daily life, and what support do they bring to the men of our OMLT every day ? Few of them belong to the Easy Company, the one the TV series focuses on. This one nowadays is named Echo Company, and it has become the support company.

They have a terribly strong American accent - from our point of view the language they speak is not even English. How many times did I have to write down what I wanted to say rather than waste precious minutes trying various pronunciations of a seemingly common word? Whatever state they are from, no two accents are alike and they even admit that in some crisis situations they have difficulties understanding each other.

Heavily built, fed at the earliest age with Gatorade, proteins and creatine - they are all heads and shoulders taller than us and their muscles remind us of Rambo. Our frames are amusingly skinny to them - we are wimps, even the strongest of us - and because of that they often mistake us for Afghans.

Here we discover America as it is often depicted : their values are taken to their paroxysm, often amplified by promiscuity and the loneliness of this outpost in the middle of that Afghan valley. Honor, motherland - everything here reminds of that : the American flag floating in the wind above the outpost, just like the one on the post parcels. Even if recruits often originate from the hearth of American cities and gang territory, no one here has any goal other than to hold high and proud the star spangled banner. Each man knows he can count on the support of a whole people who provides them through the mail all that an American could miss in such a remote front-line location : books, chewing gums, razorblades, Gatorade, toothpaste etc. in such way that every man is aware of how much the American people backs him in his difficult mission. And that is a first shock to our preconceptions : the American soldier is no individualist. The team, the group, the combat team are the focus of all his attention.

And they are impressive warriors ! We have not come across bad ones, as strange at it may seem to you when you know how critical French people can be. Even if some of them are a bit on the heavy side, all of them provide us everyday with lessons in infantry know-how. Beyond the wearing of a combat kit that never seem to discomfort them (helmet strap, helmet, combat goggles, rifles etc.) the long hours of watch at the outpost never seem to annoy them in the slightest. On the one square meter wooden tower above the perimeter wall they stand the five consecutive hours in full battle rattle and night vision goggles on top, their sight unmoving in the directions of likely danger. No distractions, no pauses, they are like statues nights and days. At night, all movements are performed in the dark - only a handful of subdued red lights indicate the occasional presence of a soldier on the move. Same with the vehicles whose lights are covered - everything happens in pitch dark even filling the fuel tanks with the Japy pump.

And combat ? If you have seen Rambo you have seen it all - always coming to the rescue when one of our teams gets in trouble, and always in the shortest delay. That is one of their tricks : they switch from T-shirt and sandals to combat ready in three minutes. Arriving in contact with the ennemy, the way they fight is simple and disconcerting : they just charge ! They disembark and assault in stride, they bomb first and ask questions later - which cuts any pussyfooting short.

We seldom hear any harsh word, and from 5 AM onwards the camp chores are performed in beautiful order and always with excellent spirit. A passing American helicopter stops near a stranded vehicle just to check that everything is alright; an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

To those who bestow us with the honor of sharing their combat outposts and who everyday give proof of their military excellence, to those who pay the daily tribute of America’s army’s deployment on Afghan soil, to those we owned this article, ourselves hoping that we will always remain worthy of them and to always continue hearing them say that we are all the same band of brothers”.


http://serendipity.ruwenzori.net/index.p...nfantryman]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=869 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:34:45 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=869 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=867 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:21:56 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=867

Quote: Two men were working beside a fire in a quarry, one day in winter, when a stranger approached them on horseback. Alighting from his horse he began to enter into conversation on the state of their souls and drew some alarming truths from the blazing fire. The men were surprised, and exclaimed 'Ye're nae common man.' 'Oh yes,' he replied, 'just a common man.' One cannot meet Robert Murray M'Cheyne either in his biography (so powerfully written by Andrew Bonar) or in his sermons, without receiving the impression which these men received in their personal encounter with him so long ago. His brief ministry of seven-and-a-half years 'stamped an indelible impress on Scotland,' and though he died in his twenty-ninth year, more was wrought by him that will last for eternity than most accomplish in a lifetime. If we could summon but one life from the past, the lessons of which would apply most directly to this slothful and careless generation, perhaps it would be the life of Robert M'Cheyne. After his death, a fellow minister wrote, "Indolence and levity and unfaithfulness are sins that beset me ; and his living presence was a rebuke to all these, for I never knew one so instant in season and out of season, so impressed with the invisible realities, and so faithful in reproving sin and witnessing for Christ."

Robert M'Cheyne was born in Edinburgh in May, 1813, the youngest child in a family of five. His father was a prosperous lawyer and a man of social importance. Their spacious home, with its gardens, commanded a glorious view across to the shores of Fife. Here in Edinburgh M'Cheyne spent his childhood and youth. After passing successfully though the High School, he entered the Arts Faculty of the University in autumn 1827. "He was of a lively turn" - his father later recorded - "and, during the first two or three years of his attendance at the University, he turned his attention to elocution and poetry and the pleasures of society …" M'Cheyne became at this time an eager participant in the city's fashionable entertainments, and scenes of gaiety - card plating, dancing, music - occupied his leisure hours. But he was the subject of his elder brother's fervent prayers, and the early death of this brother in 1831 was a stroke which was used to awaken Robert from the sleep of nature. It was "the first overwhelming blow to my worldliness." He began to be serious, and to sit under an evangelical ministry. Soon we read entries like this in his diary:-- "March 10, 1832. I hope never to play cards again." "March 25. Never visit on a Sunday evening again." "April 10. Absented myself from the dance …" Having himself once followed such fading pleasures, M'Cheyne was often in later years to declare in his preaching - "O Christless man, you have pleasure, but it is only for a season. Laugh on if you will - your candle will soon be out. Your games, your dance, your social parties, will soon be over. There are no games in hell."

In the winter of 1831, following his desire to enter the ministry, he entered the Divinity Hall of the University. Under the leadership of men like Chalmers and Welsh there was a new stir of spiritual life in the College at this time, indeed it proved to be a new stir in the life of the Church of Scotland. We can trace from his diary in the following years a growing grasp of Scriptural truth, a growing desire to live in communion with God and under the power of the world to come. Entries like this speak for themselves:-- "June 22. Bought Edwards' works. Truly there was nothing in me that should have induced Him to choose me. I was but as the other brands upon whom the fire is already kindled, which shall burn for evermore!" "August 15. Awfully important question, Am I redeeming the time ?" "February 23. Sabbath. Rose early to seek God, and found Him whom my soul loveth. Who would not rise early to meet such company ?" Reading the biographies of past ministers had a profound influence on M'Cheyne at this time, especially such lives as Jonathan Edwards, Brainerd, Martyn, Payson, and Halyburton. In fact he became so familiar with the works of the first named, that Edwards' 'Resolutions' became exemplified in M'Cheyne - "Resolved never to lose one moment of time, but to improve it in the most profitable way I possibly can. Resolved, That I will live so, as I shall wish I had done when I had come to die. Resolved, To live with all my might, while I do live .." From a letter M'Cheyne later wrote to a student, we can see what rules he applied to himself - "Do get on with your studies. Remember you are now forming the character of your future ministry, if God spare you. If you acquire slovenly or sleepy habits of study now, you will never get the better of it. Do everything in earnest. Above all, keep much in the presence of God. Never see the face of man till you have seen His face who is our life, our all." The last entry of his student days is "March 29, 1835. College finished on Friday last. My last appearance there. Life is vanishing fast, make haste for eternity." So ended his preparatory discipline, both of heart and mind. "His soul," writes Bonar, "was prepared for the awful work of ministry by much prayer, and much study of the word of God ; by inward trials ; by experience of the depth of corruption in his own heart, and by discoveries of the Saviour's fulness of grace."

M'Cheyne was licensed by the presbytery of Annan on July 1st, 1835 and became "a preacher of the Gospel an honour to which I cannot name an equal." After a further period, largely of preparation for the future, as assistant to Mr. John Bonar the minister of Larbert and Dunipace, he was ordained minister of St. Peter's, Dundee, I November, 1836. It was a new church built in a sadly neglected district containing some 4,000 souls. "A city given to idolatry and hardness of heart," was his first impression. "A very dead region," is Bonar's description, "the surrounding mass of impenetrable heathenism cast its influence even on those few who were living Christians." "He has set me down among the noisy mechanics and political wavers of this godless town," M'Cheyne wrote. There was nothing in his message to please such a people ; "If the Gospel pleased carnal men it would not be the Gospel," he declared. He was deeply persuaded that the Spirit's first work in salvation is to convict of sin, and to bring men to despair of their condition by nature, it was therefore on this note that his ministry commenced and continued - "Men must be brought down by law work to see their guilt and misery, or all our preaching is beating the air. A broken heart alone can receive a crucified Christ. The most, I fear, in all congregations, are sailing easily down the stream into an undone eternity, unconverted and unawakened." Urgency and alarm characterised his message. "God help me to speak to you plainly! The longest lifetime is short enough. It is all that is given you to be converted in. In a very little, it will be all over ; and all that is here is changing - the very hills are crumbling down - the loveliest face is withering away - the finest garments rot and decay. Every day that passes is bringing you nearer to the judgment-seat. Not one of you is standing still. You may sleep ; but the tide is going on bringing you nearer death, judgment, and eternity.

M'Cheyne was enabled to walk in a continual awareness of these truths - "I think I can say, I have never risen a morning without thinking how I could bring more souls to Christ." In his diary we find records like this:-- "As I was walking in the fields, the thought came over me with almost overwhelming power, that every one of my flock must soon be in heaven or hell."

But there is another feature of M'Cheyne's life which is perhaps even more prominent than his constant longings for the salvation of souls. "Above all things, cultivate your own spirit," he wrote to a fellow-minister. "Your own soul is your first and greatest care. Seek advance of personal holiness. It is not great talents God blesses so much as great likeness to Jesus. A holy minister is an awful weapon in the hand of God. A word spoken by you when your conscience is clear, and your heart full of God's Spirit, is worth ten thousand words spoken in unbelief and sin." "Get your texts from God - your thoughts, your words, from God." From his diary we gather his own private observations:-- "I ought to spend the best hours of the day in communion with God. It is my noblest and most fruitful employment … The morning hours, from six to eight, are the most uninterrupted … After tea is my best hour, and that should be solemnly dedicated to God, if possible." Bonar writes, "the real secret of his soul's prosperity lay in daily enlargement of his heart in fellowship with his God. Meditation and prayer were the very sinews of his work." Even when pressed by duties, "he kept by his rule, 'that he must first see the face of God before he could undertake any duty.'" It was M'Cheyne's constant aim to avoid any hurry which prevents "the calm working of the Spirit on the heart. The dew comes down when all nature is at rest - when every leaf is still. A calm hour with God is worth a whole lifetime with man …"

M'Cheyne was ever concerned to deepen his ministry by continual study. "Few", says Bonar ; have maintained such an "undecaying esteem for the advantages of study." Though always conscious that souls were perishing every day, he never fell into the error of thinking that a minister's main work consists of outward activity. "The great fault I find with this generation is, they cry that ministers should be more in public ; they think that it is an easy thing to interpret the word of God, and to preach. But a minister's duty is not so much public as private." Two thick notebooks show that he was constantly storing his mind by reading the Puritans, and Reformers. This emphasis on personal growth he never lost. "Oh," he declared to a friend, "we preachers need to know God in another way than heretofore, in order to speak aright of sin and of salvation. The work of God would flourish by us, if it flourished more richly in us."

"The want of ministerial success," says Robinson, "is a tremendous circumstance, never to be contemplated without horror." Never to rest without success was M'Cheyne's unvarying aim ; though from his earliest days at St. Peter's his preaching was attended with saving power, and produced deep convictions and distress in the hearts of many, he an his people ever prayed for further manifestations of God's glory. But towards the end of 1838 the course of his ministry was interrupted by symptoms which alarmed his friends. He was attacked by violent palpitation of heart - the effect of unremitting labour. It soon increased, so that his medical advisers insisted on a total cessation of work. Accordingly M'Cheyne with deep regret returned to his parents home in Edinburgh, to rest until he could resume his ministry. This separation from his people occasioned some of his richest letters. "Ah!" he writes, "there is nothing like a calm look into the eternal world to teach us the emptiness of human praise, the sinfulness of self-seeking, the preciousness of Christ." From the ten lengthy Pastoral Letters which he sent to his flock, we can quote but a paragraph of one :-

"Consider what fruit there is of believing in you. Have you really and fully uptaken Christ as the Gospel lays Him down ? - John 5:12. Do you cleave to Him as a sinner ? - 1 Timothy 1:15. Do you feel the glory of His person ? - Revelation 1:17 ; His finished work ? - Hebrews 9:26 ; His offices ? - 1 Corinthians 1:30. Does He shine like the sun into your soul ? - Malachi 4:2. Is your heart ravished with His beauty ? - Song of Solomon 5:16. Again, what fruit is there in you of crying after holiness ? Is this the one thing that you do ? - Philippians 3:13. Do you spend your life in cries for deliverance from this body of sin and death ? - Romans 7:24. Ah! I fear there is little of this. I fear you do not know "the exceeding greatness of His power" to usward who believe. I fear many of you are strangers to the visits of the Comforter."

Prolonged illness prevented M'Cheyne's speedy restoration to his people, and in the spring of 1839 it was proposed in Edinburgh that he should accompany a party of ministers who were to visit Palestine to make personal enquiries into the state of Israel. The voyage and climate it was thought would prove beneficial to him. His acceptance, and their subsequent travels to Jerusalem and Galilee we cannot pause to describe. Even when far from them, the spiritual prosperity of his people in Dundee was uppermost in his heart. After surveying the barren spot in Galilee where Capernaum once stood, he wrote to them, "If you tread the glorious Gospel of the grace of God under your feet, your souls will perish ; and I fear Dundee will one day be a howling wilderness like Capernaum." "Ah! would my flock from thee might learn, How days of grace will flee ; How all an offered Christ who spurn, shall mourn at last, like thee."

Not long after the party had begun to return homewards through Asia Minor, M'Cheyne was taken dangerously ill. Towards the end of July, 1839 as he lay apparently dying near Smyrna, he believed it was not to his native Scotland but to his eternal home that he was going. "My most earnest prayer was for my dear flock." "The cry of his servant in Asia was not forgotten," writes Bonar ; "the eye of the Lord turned toward his people. Their pastor was at the gate of death, in utter helplessness. But the Lord had done this on very purpose ; for He meant to show that He needed not the help of any." W. C. Burns - a young man of twenty-four - was supplying M'Cheyne's place at Dundee in his absence. It was under his preaching on 23rd of July that the great Revival at Kilsyth took place. "All Scotland heard the glad news that the sky was no longer brass. The Spirit in mighty power began to work from that day forward in many places of the land." As soon as Burns resumed his ministry in Dundee early in August, the same effects occurred. The truth pierced hearts in an overwhelming manner - "tears were streaming from the eyes of many, and some fell on the ground groaning, and weeping, and crying for mercy." Services were held every night for many weeks - often lasting till late hours. The whole town was moved. The fear of God fell upon the ungodly. Anxious multitudes filled the churches.

When M'Cheyne, restored to health, returned to St. Peter's in November of that year, he viewed an unforgettable scene. A deep concern and impression of eternal realities possessed the vast congregation. In worship " the people felt that they were praising a present God." Such a sight as this was not uncommon throughout the remainder of his ministry. The grief at sin which filled the hearts of many could only be expressed by tears ; the distress expressed by one awakened sinner to M'Cheyne represented the feeling of scores - "I think," he said, "hell would be some relief from an angry God." Such was the anxiety which now prevailed to hear the Gospel that even when M'Cheyne was preaching in the open air in the meadows at Dundee, and heavy rain began to fall, the dense crowd stood till the last. The Word was listened to on these occasions with "an awful and breathless stillness."

It was M'Cheyne's custom never to accept mere professions of faith as signs of conversion. "It is holy-making Gospel," he declared. "Without holy fruit all evidences are vain. Dear friends, you have awakenings, enlightenings, experiences, a full heart in prayer, and many due signs ; but if you want holiness, you will never see the Lord. A real desire after complete holiness is the truest mark of being born again. Jesus is a holy Saviour. He first covers the soul with His white raiment, then makes the soul glorious within - restores the lost image of God, and fills the soul with pure, heavenly holiness. Unregenerate men among you cannot bear this."

As his ministry drew towards its solemn close, he became increasingly conscious of the brevity of time. "I do not expect to live long … Changes are coming ; every eye before me shall soon be dim in death. Another pastor shall feed this flock ; another singer lead the psalm ; another flock shall fill this fold … There is no believing, no repenting, no conversion in the grave - no minister will speak to you there. This is the time of conversion. Oh! My friends, you will have no ordinances in hell - there will be no preaching in hell … Oh that you would use this little time! Every moment of it is worth a world."

In his last year at St. Peter's we find him preaching with terrible clearness on the eternal punishment of the unconverted - four sermons were devoted to this subject. He never dreaded the reproach a dying woman addressed to John Newton - "you often spoke to me of Christ ; but oh you did not tell me enough about my danger." "Brethren," M'Cheyne warned his fellow ministers, our people will not thank us in eternity for speaking smooth things, and crying Peace, peace, when there is no peace. No, they may praise us now, but they will curse our flattery in eternity." At his last communion service in January 1843 he preached on "Paul a Pattern" (! Timothy 1:16). In February he was away in the north west of Scotland, and preached twenty-seven times, in twenty-four different places often travelling through heavy snow. On his return to Dundee he confessed he felt "very tired." March 12th proved to be his last Sabbath in the pulpit of St. Peter's, his final sermon was from Romans 9:22 and 23. "What if God, willing to show his wrath …" "It was observed," writes Bonar, "both then and on other occasions, he spoke with peculiar strength upon the sovereignty of God." The following Tuesday he felt ill but took a wedding service, and afterwards spoke to a group of children, who informally gathered round him, on "The Good Shepherd." It was his last public appearance ; that evening he succumbed to a fever which was prevalent in the parish at the time. After lying helplessly for a week with burning fever, a delirium overtook him on Tuesday 21st. His utterances now showed the thoughts which were uppermost in his mind. As if addressing his people he cried "You must be awakened in time, or you will be awakened in everlasting torment, to your eternal confusion." Then he prayed, "This parish, Lord, this people, this whole place!" Robert Murray M'Cheyne died on Saturday, march 25th, 1843. "Live for eternity. A few days more and our journey is done." The truth, he had so often preached was accomplished. His desire was fulfilled - "Oh to be like Jesus, and with Him to all eternity!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have finished our outlines of the life of one who declared he was "just a common man." But our impression must surely be that such a ministry is very uncommon in our times. It is then no small question for ministers to ask - "Where lies the difference between his ministry and ours ?"

No other questions are so vital as this, the answer is far from the minds of many. First, M'Cheyne was different in doctrine. His preaching was clearly and definitely in line with the faith of the Reformers and Puritans. That glorious Puritan document, in which every doctrine is given its true Scriptural proportion - The Westminster Confession of Faith - was his constant text book. "Oh for the grace of the Westminster divines," he writes, "to be poured out upon this generation of lesser men." Ruin by the fall, Righteousness by Christ, and Regeneration by the Spirit was the substance of his preaching. Sin has so ruined man's mind and heart that he has no will to be saved. "You will only have yourselves to blame if ye awake in hell. If you die, it is because you will die ; and if you will die, then you must die." Like all who apprehend this to be the true condition of men by nature, M'Cheyne clearly saw that without God's electing love and without the Divine power He exercises in conversion no soul would ever be saved. Unless He makes them willing in the day of His power they will never come. After declaring the text 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' he says "Every thinking man must know and feel that none will ever come to Christ but those who were given Him by the Father from all eternity." "The only power that can bring a child of Satan and make him a child of God, is God Himself. Ah! dear friends, the power is not in creatures. It is not in the power of man - it is not in the power given to ministers ; God alone can do it … Ah! my friends, this is a humbling doctrine. There is no difference between us and the children of wrath ; some of us were more wicked than they, yet God set his love on us. If there are any here that think that they have been chosen because they were better than others, you are grossly mistaken." In conversion therefore the Divine work of regeneration must precede faith. The Spirit convicts the sinner that Christ alone is able to save him.

The constant aim of M'Cheyne's preaching to the awakened and converted was to bring them to see the vastness, completeness and freeness of the salvation brought by Christ. "Remember Jesus for us is all our righteousness before a holy God, and Jesus in us is all our strength in an ungodly world … He justifies sinners who have no righteousness, sanctifies souls that have no holiness. Let Jesus bear your whole weight. Remember, He loves to be the only support of your soul. There is nothing that you can possibly need but you will find it in Him." The most prominent cause of the absence of such ministries as M'Cheyne's to-day lies in the absence of his doctrine, for it is only the truth of God which the Spirit will honour and bless.

Secondly, M'Cheyne was different in his life. I do not mean he was exempt from the conflict with indwelling sin known by the Apostle Paul (Romans 7) and by every Christian. On the contrary it was (as we see in his diary) the constant awareness of the "abyss of corruption" in his heart, that brought him into such continual dependence on Christ. "Our wicked heart taints all we say and do ; hence the need of continual atonement in the blood of Jesus. We must have daily, hourly pardons." But he was different in that he ever lived as one on the brink of eternity, as one who longed for a "full conformity to God," and prized communion with Him as his chief joy. He was ever reminding himself - "If I could follow the Lord more fully myself, my ministry would be used to make a deeper impression than it has yet done." Are we not rebuked by this minister who was given hundreds of souls as his reward ? Have we not failed to estimate aright the value of near access to God ? Is such a ministry needed in our times ? The same Jesus reigns ; the same Spirit is able ; and the same source of grace is open to us. "Oh! brethren, be wise. 'Why stand ye all the day idle ?' In a little moment it will be all over. A little while and the day of grace will be over - preaching, praying will be done. A little while, and we shall stand before the great white throne - a little while, and the wicked shall not be ; we shall see them going away into everlasting punishment. A little while, and the work of eternity shall be begun. We shall be like Him - we shall see Him day and night in His temple - we shall sing the new song, without sin and without weariness, for ever and ever."

]]>

Quote: Two men were working beside a fire in a quarry, one day in winter, when a stranger approached them on horseback. Alighting from his horse he began to enter into conversation on the state of their souls and drew some alarming truths from the blazing fire. The men were surprised, and exclaimed 'Ye're nae common man.' 'Oh yes,' he replied, 'just a common man.' One cannot meet Robert Murray M'Cheyne either in his biography (so powerfully written by Andrew Bonar) or in his sermons, without receiving the impression which these men received in their personal encounter with him so long ago. His brief ministry of seven-and-a-half years 'stamped an indelible impress on Scotland,' and though he died in his twenty-ninth year, more was wrought by him that will last for eternity than most accomplish in a lifetime. If we could summon but one life from the past, the lessons of which would apply most directly to this slothful and careless generation, perhaps it would be the life of Robert M'Cheyne. After his death, a fellow minister wrote, "Indolence and levity and unfaithfulness are sins that beset me ; and his living presence was a rebuke to all these, for I never knew one so instant in season and out of season, so impressed with the invisible realities, and so faithful in reproving sin and witnessing for Christ."

Robert M'Cheyne was born in Edinburgh in May, 1813, the youngest child in a family of five. His father was a prosperous lawyer and a man of social importance. Their spacious home, with its gardens, commanded a glorious view across to the shores of Fife. Here in Edinburgh M'Cheyne spent his childhood and youth. After passing successfully though the High School, he entered the Arts Faculty of the University in autumn 1827. "He was of a lively turn" - his father later recorded - "and, during the first two or three years of his attendance at the University, he turned his attention to elocution and poetry and the pleasures of society …" M'Cheyne became at this time an eager participant in the city's fashionable entertainments, and scenes of gaiety - card plating, dancing, music - occupied his leisure hours. But he was the subject of his elder brother's fervent prayers, and the early death of this brother in 1831 was a stroke which was used to awaken Robert from the sleep of nature. It was "the first overwhelming blow to my worldliness." He began to be serious, and to sit under an evangelical ministry. Soon we read entries like this in his diary:-- "March 10, 1832. I hope never to play cards again." "March 25. Never visit on a Sunday evening again." "April 10. Absented myself from the dance …" Having himself once followed such fading pleasures, M'Cheyne was often in later years to declare in his preaching - "O Christless man, you have pleasure, but it is only for a season. Laugh on if you will - your candle will soon be out. Your games, your dance, your social parties, will soon be over. There are no games in hell."

In the winter of 1831, following his desire to enter the ministry, he entered the Divinity Hall of the University. Under the leadership of men like Chalmers and Welsh there was a new stir of spiritual life in the College at this time, indeed it proved to be a new stir in the life of the Church of Scotland. We can trace from his diary in the following years a growing grasp of Scriptural truth, a growing desire to live in communion with God and under the power of the world to come. Entries like this speak for themselves:-- "June 22. Bought Edwards' works. Truly there was nothing in me that should have induced Him to choose me. I was but as the other brands upon whom the fire is already kindled, which shall burn for evermore!" "August 15. Awfully important question, Am I redeeming the time ?" "February 23. Sabbath. Rose early to seek God, and found Him whom my soul loveth. Who would not rise early to meet such company ?" Reading the biographies of past ministers had a profound influence on M'Cheyne at this time, especially such lives as Jonathan Edwards, Brainerd, Martyn, Payson, and Halyburton. In fact he became so familiar with the works of the first named, that Edwards' 'Resolutions' became exemplified in M'Cheyne - "Resolved never to lose one moment of time, but to improve it in the most profitable way I possibly can. Resolved, That I will live so, as I shall wish I had done when I had come to die. Resolved, To live with all my might, while I do live .." From a letter M'Cheyne later wrote to a student, we can see what rules he applied to himself - "Do get on with your studies. Remember you are now forming the character of your future ministry, if God spare you. If you acquire slovenly or sleepy habits of study now, you will never get the better of it. Do everything in earnest. Above all, keep much in the presence of God. Never see the face of man till you have seen His face who is our life, our all." The last entry of his student days is "March 29, 1835. College finished on Friday last. My last appearance there. Life is vanishing fast, make haste for eternity." So ended his preparatory discipline, both of heart and mind. "His soul," writes Bonar, "was prepared for the awful work of ministry by much prayer, and much study of the word of God ; by inward trials ; by experience of the depth of corruption in his own heart, and by discoveries of the Saviour's fulness of grace."

M'Cheyne was licensed by the presbytery of Annan on July 1st, 1835 and became "a preacher of the Gospel an honour to which I cannot name an equal." After a further period, largely of preparation for the future, as assistant to Mr. John Bonar the minister of Larbert and Dunipace, he was ordained minister of St. Peter's, Dundee, I November, 1836. It was a new church built in a sadly neglected district containing some 4,000 souls. "A city given to idolatry and hardness of heart," was his first impression. "A very dead region," is Bonar's description, "the surrounding mass of impenetrable heathenism cast its influence even on those few who were living Christians." "He has set me down among the noisy mechanics and political wavers of this godless town," M'Cheyne wrote. There was nothing in his message to please such a people ; "If the Gospel pleased carnal men it would not be the Gospel," he declared. He was deeply persuaded that the Spirit's first work in salvation is to convict of sin, and to bring men to despair of their condition by nature, it was therefore on this note that his ministry commenced and continued - "Men must be brought down by law work to see their guilt and misery, or all our preaching is beating the air. A broken heart alone can receive a crucified Christ. The most, I fear, in all congregations, are sailing easily down the stream into an undone eternity, unconverted and unawakened." Urgency and alarm characterised his message. "God help me to speak to you plainly! The longest lifetime is short enough. It is all that is given you to be converted in. In a very little, it will be all over ; and all that is here is changing - the very hills are crumbling down - the loveliest face is withering away - the finest garments rot and decay. Every day that passes is bringing you nearer to the judgment-seat. Not one of you is standing still. You may sleep ; but the tide is going on bringing you nearer death, judgment, and eternity.

M'Cheyne was enabled to walk in a continual awareness of these truths - "I think I can say, I have never risen a morning without thinking how I could bring more souls to Christ." In his diary we find records like this:-- "As I was walking in the fields, the thought came over me with almost overwhelming power, that every one of my flock must soon be in heaven or hell."

But there is another feature of M'Cheyne's life which is perhaps even more prominent than his constant longings for the salvation of souls. "Above all things, cultivate your own spirit," he wrote to a fellow-minister. "Your own soul is your first and greatest care. Seek advance of personal holiness. It is not great talents God blesses so much as great likeness to Jesus. A holy minister is an awful weapon in the hand of God. A word spoken by you when your conscience is clear, and your heart full of God's Spirit, is worth ten thousand words spoken in unbelief and sin." "Get your texts from God - your thoughts, your words, from God." From his diary we gather his own private observations:-- "I ought to spend the best hours of the day in communion with God. It is my noblest and most fruitful employment … The morning hours, from six to eight, are the most uninterrupted … After tea is my best hour, and that should be solemnly dedicated to God, if possible." Bonar writes, "the real secret of his soul's prosperity lay in daily enlargement of his heart in fellowship with his God. Meditation and prayer were the very sinews of his work." Even when pressed by duties, "he kept by his rule, 'that he must first see the face of God before he could undertake any duty.'" It was M'Cheyne's constant aim to avoid any hurry which prevents "the calm working of the Spirit on the heart. The dew comes down when all nature is at rest - when every leaf is still. A calm hour with God is worth a whole lifetime with man …"

M'Cheyne was ever concerned to deepen his ministry by continual study. "Few", says Bonar ; have maintained such an "undecaying esteem for the advantages of study." Though always conscious that souls were perishing every day, he never fell into the error of thinking that a minister's main work consists of outward activity. "The great fault I find with this generation is, they cry that ministers should be more in public ; they think that it is an easy thing to interpret the word of God, and to preach. But a minister's duty is not so much public as private." Two thick notebooks show that he was constantly storing his mind by reading the Puritans, and Reformers. This emphasis on personal growth he never lost. "Oh," he declared to a friend, "we preachers need to know God in another way than heretofore, in order to speak aright of sin and of salvation. The work of God would flourish by us, if it flourished more richly in us."

"The want of ministerial success," says Robinson, "is a tremendous circumstance, never to be contemplated without horror." Never to rest without success was M'Cheyne's unvarying aim ; though from his earliest days at St. Peter's his preaching was attended with saving power, and produced deep convictions and distress in the hearts of many, he an his people ever prayed for further manifestations of God's glory. But towards the end of 1838 the course of his ministry was interrupted by symptoms which alarmed his friends. He was attacked by violent palpitation of heart - the effect of unremitting labour. It soon increased, so that his medical advisers insisted on a total cessation of work. Accordingly M'Cheyne with deep regret returned to his parents home in Edinburgh, to rest until he could resume his ministry. This separation from his people occasioned some of his richest letters. "Ah!" he writes, "there is nothing like a calm look into the eternal world to teach us the emptiness of human praise, the sinfulness of self-seeking, the preciousness of Christ." From the ten lengthy Pastoral Letters which he sent to his flock, we can quote but a paragraph of one :-

"Consider what fruit there is of believing in you. Have you really and fully uptaken Christ as the Gospel lays Him down ? - John 5:12. Do you cleave to Him as a sinner ? - 1 Timothy 1:15. Do you feel the glory of His person ? - Revelation 1:17 ; His finished work ? - Hebrews 9:26 ; His offices ? - 1 Corinthians 1:30. Does He shine like the sun into your soul ? - Malachi 4:2. Is your heart ravished with His beauty ? - Song of Solomon 5:16. Again, what fruit is there in you of crying after holiness ? Is this the one thing that you do ? - Philippians 3:13. Do you spend your life in cries for deliverance from this body of sin and death ? - Romans 7:24. Ah! I fear there is little of this. I fear you do not know "the exceeding greatness of His power" to usward who believe. I fear many of you are strangers to the visits of the Comforter."

Prolonged illness prevented M'Cheyne's speedy restoration to his people, and in the spring of 1839 it was proposed in Edinburgh that he should accompany a party of ministers who were to visit Palestine to make personal enquiries into the state of Israel. The voyage and climate it was thought would prove beneficial to him. His acceptance, and their subsequent travels to Jerusalem and Galilee we cannot pause to describe. Even when far from them, the spiritual prosperity of his people in Dundee was uppermost in his heart. After surveying the barren spot in Galilee where Capernaum once stood, he wrote to them, "If you tread the glorious Gospel of the grace of God under your feet, your souls will perish ; and I fear Dundee will one day be a howling wilderness like Capernaum." "Ah! would my flock from thee might learn, How days of grace will flee ; How all an offered Christ who spurn, shall mourn at last, like thee."

Not long after the party had begun to return homewards through Asia Minor, M'Cheyne was taken dangerously ill. Towards the end of July, 1839 as he lay apparently dying near Smyrna, he believed it was not to his native Scotland but to his eternal home that he was going. "My most earnest prayer was for my dear flock." "The cry of his servant in Asia was not forgotten," writes Bonar ; "the eye of the Lord turned toward his people. Their pastor was at the gate of death, in utter helplessness. But the Lord had done this on very purpose ; for He meant to show that He needed not the help of any." W. C. Burns - a young man of twenty-four - was supplying M'Cheyne's place at Dundee in his absence. It was under his preaching on 23rd of July that the great Revival at Kilsyth took place. "All Scotland heard the glad news that the sky was no longer brass. The Spirit in mighty power began to work from that day forward in many places of the land." As soon as Burns resumed his ministry in Dundee early in August, the same effects occurred. The truth pierced hearts in an overwhelming manner - "tears were streaming from the eyes of many, and some fell on the ground groaning, and weeping, and crying for mercy." Services were held every night for many weeks - often lasting till late hours. The whole town was moved. The fear of God fell upon the ungodly. Anxious multitudes filled the churches.

When M'Cheyne, restored to health, returned to St. Peter's in November of that year, he viewed an unforgettable scene. A deep concern and impression of eternal realities possessed the vast congregation. In worship " the people felt that they were praising a present God." Such a sight as this was not uncommon throughout the remainder of his ministry. The grief at sin which filled the hearts of many could only be expressed by tears ; the distress expressed by one awakened sinner to M'Cheyne represented the feeling of scores - "I think," he said, "hell would be some relief from an angry God." Such was the anxiety which now prevailed to hear the Gospel that even when M'Cheyne was preaching in the open air in the meadows at Dundee, and heavy rain began to fall, the dense crowd stood till the last. The Word was listened to on these occasions with "an awful and breathless stillness."

It was M'Cheyne's custom never to accept mere professions of faith as signs of conversion. "It is holy-making Gospel," he declared. "Without holy fruit all evidences are vain. Dear friends, you have awakenings, enlightenings, experiences, a full heart in prayer, and many due signs ; but if you want holiness, you will never see the Lord. A real desire after complete holiness is the truest mark of being born again. Jesus is a holy Saviour. He first covers the soul with His white raiment, then makes the soul glorious within - restores the lost image of God, and fills the soul with pure, heavenly holiness. Unregenerate men among you cannot bear this."

As his ministry drew towards its solemn close, he became increasingly conscious of the brevity of time. "I do not expect to live long … Changes are coming ; every eye before me shall soon be dim in death. Another pastor shall feed this flock ; another singer lead the psalm ; another flock shall fill this fold … There is no believing, no repenting, no conversion in the grave - no minister will speak to you there. This is the time of conversion. Oh! My friends, you will have no ordinances in hell - there will be no preaching in hell … Oh that you would use this little time! Every moment of it is worth a world."

In his last year at St. Peter's we find him preaching with terrible clearness on the eternal punishment of the unconverted - four sermons were devoted to this subject. He never dreaded the reproach a dying woman addressed to John Newton - "you often spoke to me of Christ ; but oh you did not tell me enough about my danger." "Brethren," M'Cheyne warned his fellow ministers, our people will not thank us in eternity for speaking smooth things, and crying Peace, peace, when there is no peace. No, they may praise us now, but they will curse our flattery in eternity." At his last communion service in January 1843 he preached on "Paul a Pattern" (! Timothy 1:16). In February he was away in the north west of Scotland, and preached twenty-seven times, in twenty-four different places often travelling through heavy snow. On his return to Dundee he confessed he felt "very tired." March 12th proved to be his last Sabbath in the pulpit of St. Peter's, his final sermon was from Romans 9:22 and 23. "What if God, willing to show his wrath …" "It was observed," writes Bonar, "both then and on other occasions, he spoke with peculiar strength upon the sovereignty of God." The following Tuesday he felt ill but took a wedding service, and afterwards spoke to a group of children, who informally gathered round him, on "The Good Shepherd." It was his last public appearance ; that evening he succumbed to a fever which was prevalent in the parish at the time. After lying helplessly for a week with burning fever, a delirium overtook him on Tuesday 21st. His utterances now showed the thoughts which were uppermost in his mind. As if addressing his people he cried "You must be awakened in time, or you will be awakened in everlasting torment, to your eternal confusion." Then he prayed, "This parish, Lord, this people, this whole place!" Robert Murray M'Cheyne died on Saturday, march 25th, 1843. "Live for eternity. A few days more and our journey is done." The truth, he had so often preached was accomplished. His desire was fulfilled - "Oh to be like Jesus, and with Him to all eternity!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have finished our outlines of the life of one who declared he was "just a common man." But our impression must surely be that such a ministry is very uncommon in our times. It is then no small question for ministers to ask - "Where lies the difference between his ministry and ours ?"

No other questions are so vital as this, the answer is far from the minds of many. First, M'Cheyne was different in doctrine. His preaching was clearly and definitely in line with the faith of the Reformers and Puritans. That glorious Puritan document, in which every doctrine is given its true Scriptural proportion - The Westminster Confession of Faith - was his constant text book. "Oh for the grace of the Westminster divines," he writes, "to be poured out upon this generation of lesser men." Ruin by the fall, Righteousness by Christ, and Regeneration by the Spirit was the substance of his preaching. Sin has so ruined man's mind and heart that he has no will to be saved. "You will only have yourselves to blame if ye awake in hell. If you die, it is because you will die ; and if you will die, then you must die." Like all who apprehend this to be the true condition of men by nature, M'Cheyne clearly saw that without God's electing love and without the Divine power He exercises in conversion no soul would ever be saved. Unless He makes them willing in the day of His power they will never come. After declaring the text 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' he says "Every thinking man must know and feel that none will ever come to Christ but those who were given Him by the Father from all eternity." "The only power that can bring a child of Satan and make him a child of God, is God Himself. Ah! dear friends, the power is not in creatures. It is not in the power of man - it is not in the power given to ministers ; God alone can do it … Ah! my friends, this is a humbling doctrine. There is no difference between us and the children of wrath ; some of us were more wicked than they, yet God set his love on us. If there are any here that think that they have been chosen because they were better than others, you are grossly mistaken." In conversion therefore the Divine work of regeneration must precede faith. The Spirit convicts the sinner that Christ alone is able to save him.

The constant aim of M'Cheyne's preaching to the awakened and converted was to bring them to see the vastness, completeness and freeness of the salvation brought by Christ. "Remember Jesus for us is all our righteousness before a holy God, and Jesus in us is all our strength in an ungodly world … He justifies sinners who have no righteousness, sanctifies souls that have no holiness. Let Jesus bear your whole weight. Remember, He loves to be the only support of your soul. There is nothing that you can possibly need but you will find it in Him." The most prominent cause of the absence of such ministries as M'Cheyne's to-day lies in the absence of his doctrine, for it is only the truth of God which the Spirit will honour and bless.

Secondly, M'Cheyne was different in his life. I do not mean he was exempt from the conflict with indwelling sin known by the Apostle Paul (Romans 7) and by every Christian. On the contrary it was (as we see in his diary) the constant awareness of the "abyss of corruption" in his heart, that brought him into such continual dependence on Christ. "Our wicked heart taints all we say and do ; hence the need of continual atonement in the blood of Jesus. We must have daily, hourly pardons." But he was different in that he ever lived as one on the brink of eternity, as one who longed for a "full conformity to God," and prized communion with Him as his chief joy. He was ever reminding himself - "If I could follow the Lord more fully myself, my ministry would be used to make a deeper impression than it has yet done." Are we not rebuked by this minister who was given hundreds of souls as his reward ? Have we not failed to estimate aright the value of near access to God ? Is such a ministry needed in our times ? The same Jesus reigns ; the same Spirit is able ; and the same source of grace is open to us. "Oh! brethren, be wise. 'Why stand ye all the day idle ?' In a little moment it will be all over. A little while and the day of grace will be over - preaching, praying will be done. A little while, and we shall stand before the great white throne - a little while, and the wicked shall not be ; we shall see them going away into everlasting punishment. A little while, and the work of eternity shall be begun. We shall be like Him - we shall see Him day and night in His temple - we shall sing the new song, without sin and without weariness, for ever and ever."

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=866 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:36:22 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=866 Quote: Online dating service eHarmony has agreed to create a new Web site — "Compatible Partners" — for gay and lesbian users, the New Jersey Office of the Attorney General announced.

Created as part of a settlement with Eric McKinley, a gay man from New Jersey, the Web site will provide services for users seeking same-sex partners by March 31, New Jersey Division on Civil Rights Director J. Frank Vespa-Papaleo said.



I love those tolerant homosexuals.

:rolleyes:]]> Quote: Online dating service eHarmony has agreed to create a new Web site — "Compatible Partners" — for gay and lesbian users, the New Jersey Office of the Attorney General announced.

Created as part of a settlement with Eric McKinley, a gay man from New Jersey, the Web site will provide services for users seeking same-sex partners by March 31, New Jersey Division on Civil Rights Director J. Frank Vespa-Papaleo said.



I love those tolerant homosexuals.

:rolleyes:]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=864 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:11:51 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=864 I need to take a moment to praise God for His continued provision for me and my family. The company I work for just went through another round of major cuts and, thankfully, my job has been spared again. It has been a very hard day. Everyone has been at their wit's end and my nerves are shot. Several close personal friends of mine lost their jobs today. Please join me in praying for them and their families as well as thanking God for His mercy and grace in allowing me to keep my position for a while longer.

From the local news:
http://www.wxii12.com/money/18010925/detail.html#-
http://www.wxii12.com/video/18014778/

In Christ,
Lane]]> I need to take a moment to praise God for His continued provision for me and my family. The company I work for just went through another round of major cuts and, thankfully, my job has been spared again. It has been a very hard day. Everyone has been at their wit's end and my nerves are shot. Several close personal friends of mine lost their jobs today. Please join me in praying for them and their families as well as thanking God for His mercy and grace in allowing me to keep my position for a while longer.

From the local news:
http://www.wxii12.com/money/18010925/detail.html#-
http://www.wxii12.com/video/18014778/

In Christ,
Lane]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=863 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:57:37 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=863
it's a big file but one that presents factual evidence.]]>
it's a big file but one that presents factual evidence.]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=862 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:33:42 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=862
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2969


Quote:
Back in 2004 I attended Dr. White's debate with Catholic apologist Gary Michuta on the Apocrypha. The cross-examination period was the key moment in determining whose position actually made the most sense of the historical facts. One of the questions Dr. White asked Mr. Michuta was about the historical accuracy of the book of Judith. Judith claims Nebuchadnezzar reigned from Nineveh (Judith asserts Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria, ruling from Nineveh). The problem Catholic apologists face is that the historical and Biblical evidence does not bear these claims out. Nebuchadnezzar was actually the king of Babylon, and did not rule from Nineveh.
Here is a brief MP3 clip of the actual question and answer from the 2004 debate. In Mr. Michuta's response, he assumes Judith is scripture, and appeals to problems of Biblical inerrancy as an answer. That is, non-Christian scholars have attempted numerous times to indict the Bible of an historical error, only to eat their words when either archaeology or textual analysis resolve the alleged error or contradiction. Michuta assumes the same is the case with the historical claims of Judith. He concludes that he isn't going to answer the question, because in actuality, it presupposes a non-Christian worldview. He treats Judith as an historical work. Since it is Scripture, any errors must be alleged errors.
In his book, Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger, Michuta reaffirms this method of response: "The best way out of this dilemma is not to enter it at all. Biblical inerrancy is not based upon our feeble abilities to solve every problem" (p. 322). Michuta further states, "The problem at the heart of this line of argumentation [by Protestants pointing out historical errors in the Apocrypha] is one of pride. It places the intellect in the role of judge, allowing it to sit in judgment upon the Word of God" (p. 323).
But it appears it's not only Protestants who struggle with pridefully using their intellect to judge the Bible. Those in charge of The Jerusalem Bible likewise struggle with this pride. They state, "...[H]istorically he was king of Babylon and was never styled 'king of Assyria,' and Nineveh was not his capital city." I hear the complaint already, "The Jerusalem Bible was produced by liberal Catholics." Okay, well the Thigpen / Armstrong New Catholic Answer Bible likewise seems to have a pride problem. It states, "Any attempt to read the book directly against the backdrop of Jewish history in relation to the empires of the ancient world is bound to fail. The story was written as a pious reflection on the meaning of the yearly Passover observance" (p. 442).
But the most fascinating example of pride comes from a very recent broadcast of Catholic Answers Live. Tim Staples was asked directly about the historical errors in the book of Judith. Tim answers by stating Judith is not strict history, but is rather an extended parable, and he reluctantly uses the phrase "didactic fiction." Here is the brief MP3 clip of the actual question and answer from Catholic Answers Live. I've never done a study on this, but I wonder how many Biblical "extended parables" actually contain seemingly historical facts that are in error, but get passed over because they were not meant to be correct facts. Staples position implies that if Judith is actual history, it is indeed in error.
Tim goes on to further assert that the book of Jonah is not a historical book, but is rather a "timeless story." Ironically, Michuta chastises higher critics in his book for attacking Jonah and the rest of Scripture with charges of historical error (p.323), and by doing so I assume he considers Jonah a historical and prophetic narrative. (As an ironic aside, one of the popular Catholic charges against Luther is that he denied Jonah as history).
Michuta concludes someone with humility would simply accept the canon of Scripture as given to the Roman Catholic Church:

"It takes humility to accept the canon of Scripture as given to the Church. But once we have made such an act all the glories of the Bible open up to us. we may humbly submit our intellect to the text, sitting at the Master's feet like little children, knowing that even if the power to solve all difficulties is beyond us, there is nevertheless a solution. To do otherwise would be not only anti-Protestant (since it violates Sola Scriptura), but anti-Catholic and anti-Christian as well" (p. 323).

Catholic Answers often promotes Mr. Michuta's book as the definitive source for information about the Apocrypha. I wonder if Gary Michuta considers Tim Staples "anti-Catholic" for his position on Judith and Jonah? That would be a "Catholic Answer" I'd like to have. He probably would not. I'd probably get an answer that states since Staples doesn't treat the book as history, he doesn't fall under the condemnation of "pride."
Rome's authoritative statements on issues like this are rare, if not completely absent, so a Catholic apologist is able to affirm what another Catholic apologist denies. Where is Rome's infallible help on this issue? Is the book history or an extended parable? I think before any Catholic apologist ventures into an Apocrypha debate or offers a "Catholic Answer," perhaps they should at least figure out which genre the book is before they decide what is really prideful or humble.

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http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2969


Quote:
Back in 2004 I attended Dr. White's debate with Catholic apologist Gary Michuta on the Apocrypha. The cross-examination period was the key moment in determining whose position actually made the most sense of the historical facts. One of the questions Dr. White asked Mr. Michuta was about the historical accuracy of the book of Judith. Judith claims Nebuchadnezzar reigned from Nineveh (Judith asserts Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria, ruling from Nineveh). The problem Catholic apologists face is that the historical and Biblical evidence does not bear these claims out. Nebuchadnezzar was actually the king of Babylon, and did not rule from Nineveh.
Here is a brief MP3 clip of the actual question and answer from the 2004 debate. In Mr. Michuta's response, he assumes Judith is scripture, and appeals to problems of Biblical inerrancy as an answer. That is, non-Christian scholars have attempted numerous times to indict the Bible of an historical error, only to eat their words when either archaeology or textual analysis resolve the alleged error or contradiction. Michuta assumes the same is the case with the historical claims of Judith. He concludes that he isn't going to answer the question, because in actuality, it presupposes a non-Christian worldview. He treats Judith as an historical work. Since it is Scripture, any errors must be alleged errors.
In his book, Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger, Michuta reaffirms this method of response: "The best way out of this dilemma is not to enter it at all. Biblical inerrancy is not based upon our feeble abilities to solve every problem" (p. 322). Michuta further states, "The problem at the heart of this line of argumentation [by Protestants pointing out historical errors in the Apocrypha] is one of pride. It places the intellect in the role of judge, allowing it to sit in judgment upon the Word of God" (p. 323).
But it appears it's not only Protestants who struggle with pridefully using their intellect to judge the Bible. Those in charge of The Jerusalem Bible likewise struggle with this pride. They state, "...[H]istorically he was king of Babylon and was never styled 'king of Assyria,' and Nineveh was not his capital city." I hear the complaint already, "The Jerusalem Bible was produced by liberal Catholics." Okay, well the Thigpen / Armstrong New Catholic Answer Bible likewise seems to have a pride problem. It states, "Any attempt to read the book directly against the backdrop of Jewish history in relation to the empires of the ancient world is bound to fail. The story was written as a pious reflection on the meaning of the yearly Passover observance" (p. 442).
But the most fascinating example of pride comes from a very recent broadcast of Catholic Answers Live. Tim Staples was asked directly about the historical errors in the book of Judith. Tim answers by stating Judith is not strict history, but is rather an extended parable, and he reluctantly uses the phrase "didactic fiction." Here is the brief MP3 clip of the actual question and answer from Catholic Answers Live. I've never done a study on this, but I wonder how many Biblical "extended parables" actually contain seemingly historical facts that are in error, but get passed over because they were not meant to be correct facts. Staples position implies that if Judith is actual history, it is indeed in error.
Tim goes on to further assert that the book of Jonah is not a historical book, but is rather a "timeless story." Ironically, Michuta chastises higher critics in his book for attacking Jonah and the rest of Scripture with charges of historical error (p.323), and by doing so I assume he considers Jonah a historical and prophetic narrative. (As an ironic aside, one of the popular Catholic charges against Luther is that he denied Jonah as history).
Michuta concludes someone with humility would simply accept the canon of Scripture as given to the Roman Catholic Church:

"It takes humility to accept the canon of Scripture as given to the Church. But once we have made such an act all the glories of the Bible open up to us. we may humbly submit our intellect to the text, sitting at the Master's feet like little children, knowing that even if the power to solve all difficulties is beyond us, there is nevertheless a solution. To do otherwise would be not only anti-Protestant (since it violates Sola Scriptura), but anti-Catholic and anti-Christian as well" (p. 323).

Catholic Answers often promotes Mr. Michuta's book as the definitive source for information about the Apocrypha. I wonder if Gary Michuta considers Tim Staples "anti-Catholic" for his position on Judith and Jonah? That would be a "Catholic Answer" I'd like to have. He probably would not. I'd probably get an answer that states since Staples doesn't treat the book as history, he doesn't fall under the condemnation of "pride."
Rome's authoritative statements on issues like this are rare, if not completely absent, so a Catholic apologist is able to affirm what another Catholic apologist denies. Where is Rome's infallible help on this issue? Is the book history or an extended parable? I think before any Catholic apologist ventures into an Apocrypha debate or offers a "Catholic Answer," perhaps they should at least figure out which genre the book is before they decide what is really prideful or humble.

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=861 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:20:25 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=861 Quote: ........none of the reformed confessions conformed to the view, and indeed the reformers were vocal in opposition to it. The Augsburg confession of the Lutheran church called it a ‘Jewish opinion’ and rejected it as they rejected the Anabaptist idea of a limited future judgement.

The English ‘Confession of Edward VI’ from which the 39 articles of the Anglican church sprang, that was produced by Cranmer says

‘Those who attempt to revive the fable of the millenarians oppose the sacred scriptures and throw themselves headlong into Jewish absurdities’

Calvin, in his institutes says

‘Their fiction is too puerile to require or deserve refutation’

We could also quote the Belgic confession and the second Helvetic confession, each of which condemn premillenialism as a false view, but let us just quote the Larger Westminster Catechism that says

‘We are to believe that at the last day there shall be a general resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust; when they that are then found alive shall in a moment be changed; and the self same bodies of the dead which were laid in the grave, being then again united to their souls forever, shall be raised up by the power of Christ. The bodies of the just, by the Spirit of Christ, and by virtue of his resurrection as their head, shall be raised in power, spiritual, incorruptible and made like to his glorious body; and the bodies of the wicked shall be raised up in dishonour by him, as an offended judge.’

And question 88 is answered with these words,

‘Immediately after the resurrection shall follow the general and final judgement of angels and men.’

From a historic perspective it is important for us to see that the position of the reformed faith has never been premillenial in any sense. In fact historic premillenialism only gained scholarly respect and popularity amongst reformed and evangelical theologians and churches through the fairly recent writing of Ladd [1911-1982]

]]> Quote: ........none of the reformed confessions conformed to the view, and indeed the reformers were vocal in opposition to it. The Augsburg confession of the Lutheran church called it a ‘Jewish opinion’ and rejected it as they rejected the Anabaptist idea of a limited future judgement.

The English ‘Confession of Edward VI’ from which the 39 articles of the Anglican church sprang, that was produced by Cranmer says

‘Those who attempt to revive the fable of the millenarians oppose the sacred scriptures and throw themselves headlong into Jewish absurdities’

Calvin, in his institutes says

‘Their fiction is too puerile to require or deserve refutation’

We could also quote the Belgic confession and the second Helvetic confession, each of which condemn premillenialism as a false view, but let us just quote the Larger Westminster Catechism that says

‘We are to believe that at the last day there shall be a general resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust; when they that are then found alive shall in a moment be changed; and the self same bodies of the dead which were laid in the grave, being then again united to their souls forever, shall be raised up by the power of Christ. The bodies of the just, by the Spirit of Christ, and by virtue of his resurrection as their head, shall be raised in power, spiritual, incorruptible and made like to his glorious body; and the bodies of the wicked shall be raised up in dishonour by him, as an offended judge.’

And question 88 is answered with these words,

‘Immediately after the resurrection shall follow the general and final judgement of angels and men.’

From a historic perspective it is important for us to see that the position of the reformed faith has never been premillenial in any sense. In fact historic premillenialism only gained scholarly respect and popularity amongst reformed and evangelical theologians and churches through the fairly recent writing of Ladd [1911-1982]

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=860 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:17:42 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=860

Quote:

It isn’t until the first half of the 2nd century that we come across any Christians who refer to a future millennial reign of Christ on earth. Justin Martyr [100-165AD] was one, and Papias [80-155AD] was another. However it is worth noting that we only have quotes from Papias’ writings made around 200 years later . There are no copies of his works still in existence. Some also claim that Irenaeus [140 – 203AD] held the same view . It is also worth noting that Justin Martyr says;

‘I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise’ [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80]

So this was not a view that was widely held in the early church as Justin himself admits.

Towards the end of the second century a group called the Montanists sprang up, preaching that the second coming was imminent and that Christ would set up his millennial reign in a village of Pepuza, in Phrygia. Through them, this idea of a millennial reign spread rapidly and they were largely responsible for the position we know today as historic premillenialism. In fact if we read the responses of men like Caius of Rome and Hippolytus to the teaching of the Montanists, they ascribe the origin of premillenialism to Cerinthus, a late first or early second century heretic, who influenced Montanus and his followers......




Quote:
............This premillenial view faced serious opposition the early church. Augustine who lived between 354-430 AD, who was initially premillenial in his beliefs, declared it to be a ‘carnal’ view and as one writer says he laid ‘the ghost of pre millenarianism to rest so effectively that for centuries the subject was practically ignored.’ When the reformation began premillenialism again appeared, the Anabaptists being it’s main supporters, and these were the ones who really pushed the idea that in the millennial reign the Jews would all be saved. .........

]]>

Quote:

It isn’t until the first half of the 2nd century that we come across any Christians who refer to a future millennial reign of Christ on earth. Justin Martyr [100-165AD] was one, and Papias [80-155AD] was another. However it is worth noting that we only have quotes from Papias’ writings made around 200 years later . There are no copies of his works still in existence. Some also claim that Irenaeus [140 – 203AD] held the same view . It is also worth noting that Justin Martyr says;

‘I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise’ [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80]

So this was not a view that was widely held in the early church as Justin himself admits.

Towards the end of the second century a group called the Montanists sprang up, preaching that the second coming was imminent and that Christ would set up his millennial reign in a village of Pepuza, in Phrygia. Through them, this idea of a millennial reign spread rapidly and they were largely responsible for the position we know today as historic premillenialism. In fact if we read the responses of men like Caius of Rome and Hippolytus to the teaching of the Montanists, they ascribe the origin of premillenialism to Cerinthus, a late first or early second century heretic, who influenced Montanus and his followers......




Quote:
............This premillenial view faced serious opposition the early church. Augustine who lived between 354-430 AD, who was initially premillenial in his beliefs, declared it to be a ‘carnal’ view and as one writer says he laid ‘the ghost of pre millenarianism to rest so effectively that for centuries the subject was practically ignored.’ When the reformation began premillenialism again appeared, the Anabaptists being it’s main supporters, and these were the ones who really pushed the idea that in the millennial reign the Jews would all be saved. .........

]]> http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=859 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:14:06 -0600 http://www.graceforums.com/showthread.php?tid=859

Quote: We must move forward in history to J N Darby [1800-1882] and the British Brethren, for this is the birth place of the teaching that we today call dispensationalism. People like Darby and Mackintosh produced several volumes of expositional works, works that heavily influenced a number of theologians in the United States, including D L Moody and C I Schofield. These works were characterised by two things, firstly they applied a consistently literal interpretation to Scripture. This is still a defining principle of dispensationalism; things cannot be spiritualised. Walvoord states that when an Old Testament prophecy refers to Israel, it must mean the literal nation of Israel. When a prophecy speaks of other nations, such as Assyria or Philistia it must refer to the land that nation once inhabited and may be fulfilled by the people now dwelling in that land. [John Walvoord, ‘The nations in prophecy.’ (Grand Rapids: Zondervan , 1967, p187)]

The second characteristic was a distinction between the church and Israel. This distinction is the cornerstone of dispensational theology as we will come on to see.

These works were perhaps produced by Brethren men seeking to combat the over-spiritualization and elaborate allegory that was rife in the Brethren movement at the time. But their popularity outside of the Brethren movement was due to entirely different circumstances. We are looking at the period of history now when Spurgeon was engrossed in the downgrade controversy, a period of history where the Scriptures were being challenged at every level. Darwinism and modern science had got hold of the people, and anything supernatural in the Scriptures was being challenged as if it was a fable. It was Germany that was the real hub of what we call higher criticism. Men like Adolf Von Harnack [1851-1930] were at the forefront of this movement. G E Ladd actually sums up the situation well when he says

‘The kernel of [Jesus’] real message consisted of a few universal truths such as the fatherhood of God, the infinite value of the individual soul, and the ethic of love’ [G E Ladd, the presence of the future (Grand rapids, Eermans, 1974) p4]

Others were teaching that eschatology had no meaning for us to today. It is into this vacuum that dispensationalism arose, it filled a gap. Christians were crying out for teaching that sounded Biblical, and dispensationalism sounded Biblical.

There were other social and economic factors that helped maintain the popularity of dispensationalism. The church in America at this time was largely post-millennial, yet the horrors of the First World War, the great depression and World War 2 were fresh in people’s minds. Then there was the start of the cold war and the tensions in the Middle East. All these things seemed to contradict the idea that we on the verge of a golden age for the church that would end with Christ’s return. Yet dispensationalism offered an assurance to people that when things go from bad to worse, that is the time the church will be raptured away to glory and the non believers left to fend for themselves. This was a very attractive notion to some Christians.

Through the Niagara Bible Conferences of the 1870s and through the very popular Schofield Study Bible that was first published in 1909, the teachings of Darby were promoted. These teachings became known as dispensationalism, because as well as stressing a literal interpretive method, and this distinction between Israel and the church, they also stressed the concept that God deals with humanity through different dispensations.

Amongst those influenced was a young evangelist by the name of Lewis Sperry Chafer. He would later establish the theological seminary which is now known as Dallas Theological Seminary. It is this college that has produced the giants of the dispensational tradition, men like Ryrie and Walvoord. These men have churned out volume upon volume of theological works promoting the dispensational view. In fact the Ryrie study bible notes are now accepted as the standard representation of modern dispensationalism. In the 60s and 70s the movement was kept alive by the production of Hal Lindsey’s book, ‘The late great planet earth,’ more recently though dispensational has maintained it’s popularity through a series of novels written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins called, ‘Left behind,’ which as of Feb. 2002 had sold over 50 million copies throughout the world.


I was covering a lot of history, so each section was necessarily brief, but I hope it is helpful for some here, it is not my intention to stir controversy with my dispensational brothers, at the start of these lectures I set my purpose out as to help us understand each other and where our beliefs differ. My second purpose was also to show how this is a relatively recent controversy for the church.]]>